RINGGENBERG: It is September 15, 1994. I'm speaking to Noelle Giddings. Okay, Noelle, my first question is: how did you become a comic book colorist?
GIDDINGS: Actually, I(Beep)--That was the beep. I was working in art, I was illustrating comic books, and I mean children's books, rather. I had done two children's books and was drawing storyboards for advertising and I sort of, I say, never read comic books as a kid at all. I mean I really just wasn't interested. I don't think most young girls are, anyway. But I met Denys Cowan, J.J. Burch and Jim Sherman, who were sharing a studio right around the corner from where I lived, and they needed someone who could do lettering and some other facets of advertising and I could do that, and they knew about comics. Actually, this is sort of a long story, sorry.
RINGGENBERG: That's okay.
GIDDINGS: Yeah, right. Well, that's, I met them and they were all successful comic book artists at the time and then when the recession hit and started drying up some of my advertising work, it seemed like the next logical thing would be like, well, maybe I'll try comics because I already sort of knew what it was about. I had an intro because of them and of course the business isn't that big so it helped knowing people that were already in, you know, and doing well, so they introduced me around a little bit and looked over my shoulder on my first couple of jobs and, you know. The drawing, I started drawing actually, and I found it a little bit more frustrating than I did the coloring. The coloring I felt like I could get a lot of satisfaction out of. I could do it, be happy with the end product and feel like I was finished, and, you know, and I liked it. And the drawing I was always forever changing lines. No, maybe this camera angle, maybe this camera angle, maybe this angle. And with the coloring, having all the pieces there, you know, sort of fit the illustrator's mentality that I have. That's what I started at. That's how it was.
RINGGENBERG: What time period was this?
GIDDINGS: This was about five years ago. God, time flies. I did pretty well pretty quickly, you know, I think. It went fast, you know.
RINGGENBERG: It didn't take you long to get established, then?
GIDDINGS: No, not at all. I mean it was like I went, I did, I think the first thing I did was the Prince comic book at DC, which was pretty popular with, I think, the business. I don't know how big it went over with the kids, but it looked good and it was shown around, and that was my first big job. And I'm sure I lost money on it because I was so noodly and it took forever and I made it, it was like painting the Sistine Chapel for me. I was so nervous and Steve Oliff separated it for me. And literally from there, I was waiting around, looking for something else, and nothing was coming and the phone rang, and it was Steve Rude and he said, `I saw your work on the Prince book, and I thought it was great, and would you like to color the Nexus origin series?' which was the origin, and then one, two and three for Dark Horse, which was--I said, sure, yes, and I didn't even ask how much they were paying. And that was really high profile. And that one just did wonders for me. Everyone, you know, I saw your work on Nexus. That was great! And I think the book even won the Eisner award, so...
RINGGENBERG: Oh, for the coloring, or just for the book?
GIDDINGS: For the whole book. The whole series, best miniseries or series of that year. I think that was three years ago? Are you familiar with that book?
RINGGENBERG: Oh, sure. I love Steve's stuff.
GIDDINGS: Yeah, so did I. I mean it was intense to work on it because everything is drawn, I mean everything, you know, and it's drawn with almost the same equal importance. It's beautiful artwork. It was a little intimidating but I really loved it. And he was good to work with, too. He helped teach me a lot. I think it was busier work. I think I've learned to leave out more coloring than I did in that job, but he was very particular about feelings and emotions and drama coming out, so we did a lot of, he called me an awful lot. (Laughs) I think his phone bill was huge, trying to make sure we were on the same wavelength with the writer and everything.
RINGGENBERG: Well, would Rude give you any kind of color guides or roughs to give you an indication of how to color a particular page?
GIDDINGS: Just a few, no, he never said too much about, like I pictured this orange. Because he often said, although I find this hard to believe because his painting is great, that he didn't have any, he couldn't color, like he didn't have particular, like he wouldn't say, all right I want this orange, or I see this red. But he did think in themes, you know, of like really warm, or really cool, or really psychedelic, and I could sort of interpret the colors, the actual colors from that, and you know, once in a while, when he had something, some special effect in mind, he would send me little painting sketches. He called them sketches, I mean they looked like little paintings. He does everything, you know...
RINGGENBERG: Did you find someone like Steve, with a real clean, direct style easier to color than someone with say, a more busy rendering style?
GIDDINGS: Well that would be like the difference between Denys and Steve. I've worked on Denys Cowan's stuff quite a bit. I mean I did the, what, the Lobo: Blazing Chain of Love. That was fairly, that was fairly sparse because the Lobo's look is like that, but he does put in, he couldn't, he's the exact opposite of Steve Rude. You're familiar with his stuff. You're familiar with his stuff?
RINGGENBERG: Oh, sure.
GIDDINGS: Yeah, really liney, you know and rendery and stuff, but, I don't know. In the beginning I thought that the really rendery stuff was easier, and I think it is in the beginning because it shows you where all of the shadows and the contours are, you know, of everything. It's all there. They're doing with ink what you in some of these hollow figures, or a hollow style, would have to, or might do, with color, unless you wanted it to be completely flat. But all the rendering is there for you, so you just work with that. The more hollow stuff, unless you know how to draw, and have a really good sense of depth, and you know, foreground, background, and shadow and all that kind of thing, maybe you're not getting as much, you know. I think Steve's stuff you really had to make big decisions on. You know, I felt like I was really deciding things with it. I guess like I said, from the figures way in the background to the figures way up front, to the lamp on the table, to the vase, to the this, to that, everything in the panel, seems in black and white, to have the same exact amount of importance, you know, the outline is all. Well, just like that, when I think of it. Do you understand that?
RINGGENBERG: Oh yeah. I know exactly what you mean.
GIDDINGS: The coded color, you know, I mean the old form of coded color, you didn't have that many choices anyway, but with the Milestone books and all of the covers, I'm doing all of the painted stuff. It's fully painted, and then with some blueline stuff, I did some Hellraiser stuff, that's all painted. And then even with the Steve Rude stuff, that seemed like it was painted because they're computer and I could go down to five percent separations so I painted those guides like paintings, you know? I mean I was really taking advantage of all of the colors available. It wasn't like the old style.
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, so there was more modelling on the forms and so forth?
GIDDINGS: Yeah, and at that point the computer people at Dark Horse, the computer was brand-new to them and they hadn't really mastered it yet, so unfortunately, it probably only even got eight out of ten of the things I was going for on the pages, simply because they were learning and trying and doing at the same time that they were pressed for time, so they really couldn't even, time-wise, they couldn't capture everything. They did let some things go. But I think overall it was good-looking, so I was, I didn't really complain. And the editor really worked hard on it, too.
RINGGENBERG: Well, in general, Noelle, how do you prefer to work as a colorist? I mean do you like to work on a blueline, or just do a color guide and give it to the computer guys?
GIDDINGS: Well, that's the funny thing. I haven't done too many color guides where I keep hearing that you can do color guides and not code them. And I haven't done any of that. And I mean every--As far as I know you still have to code, I mean I guess it happens here and there. I'd be a little nervous about handing over my color guides and letting someone interpret the colors into their own codes unless I was really sure their eye was fine-tuned. I find that hard to believe that they can get, you know, within, say, maybe accurate over ten percent gradient, you know, gap, on either side of the color, but the percentages, you know, I mean if I have it light red but I really want it darker red, how are they going to know that? You know, it's a little bit hard. I think I feel that if I put the work into painting them I don't mind coding them. But overall I think if I never had to code again it wouldn't really bother me. It's sort of adds extra time when you feel like you're done painting and then you still have to sit with the job and code it all, it's kind of a pain. But I don't know. Blueline...I like the blackline process...It's just painting, you--The difference between the blackline and the blueline, you have your black plate on acetate, which you paint under it on the blueline transfer. You paint on the blueline and you keep dropping the black plate, the acetated black plate over to see what you've got. You can use opaque paint, which is nice because you can get different kinds of effects, flat, and you can airbrush, you can do all kinds of things, but to keep dropping down and set this, and also you're not seeing every step of the way. The blackline is painting on, right on the blackline, say if you'd xerox the really, a good xerox quality onto a watercolor paper and then you paint right on that. You can't use opaque paint because cloud the black line. You can't obscure the black line. You have to use transparent paint, but they print right from there. That becomes the original artwork. And that's nice, you know. It's easy, it's like watercolor painting, and you know, and if you pretend you drew it, you're creating your own, you know you have a whole picture. It's kind of nice.
RINGGENBERG: Do you ever feel like you're doing a coloring book?
GIDDINGS: Yeah, exactly. The funny thing is...It's all I did as a kid, was color. I mean I went to art school. I always colored and drew. But I definitely liked coloring. I was the only child. I mean how many, there aren't too many games to play when you're the only child so you do things like draw and paint and things like that, so I did. Then I went to a regular college, liberal arts degree, and then I decided I didn't want to do that at all, and I actually did want to pursue the arts, so I went to Parson's and you know, studied drawing, and making a whole picture, which is what I did for like a few years out. And then, living in New York, you know, I mean it's really nice to do children's books, but it's really hard to make a living at it. Although there seems to be right now, they're, they're really, it's becoming easier to, children's books just seem to be all over the place now. But, a few years ago they weren't, and it's very difficult to pay the rent that way especially if you're a very busy type illustrator. I make really intricate pictures, so you know, it's a really great way to make a living. I mean, it's not even like a job. And it does make a living, I mean it's a good living, and you know, I still have time to work on my other art and my children's books and drawing. I'm taking a figure drawing class with George Pratt now.
RINGGENBERG: Oh, I know George.
GIDDINGS: Yeah. He's teaching a figure drawing class.
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, well it's funny, Noelle. You keep throwing out all these names and they're all people I know. So the business really is pretty small.
GIDDINGS: Yeah, it is. It is, and I feel like I, it's funny. If I had been a real super, if I had been a real fan as a kid, of comics, I'd be in heaven being in the business because I do know all these people now, but unfortunately I didn't come into it standing there appreciating the fact that I was getting to meet them. You know, it's the thing like: `Hi, what do you do?' to people like Walt Simonson, you know. And now I appreciate them all.
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, well, after seeing their work, I'm sure. Do you have any artists that are particular favorites that you like to work with?
GIDDINGS: No. (Laughs) I mean at this point I can say I really do like Walt's (art). I mean, speaking of Walt. I'd probably like him. He came to mind. I think his stuff is wonderful. And it's wonderful to color. I mean there are all different kinds of artwork that I like and all different kinds of drawing, there really are. I'm real versatile in my taste, but to color his stuff, it really lends itself to me, to beautiful color. I mean I've painted the Stebbin(?) covers that she did for Milestone, the, was it seven? I think it was seven, Walt Simonson covers a month thing that we did for a poster. I loved coloring each one of them, I mean I really took hours on them. They're, just, they have a lot of space but it's all there. I think he's creative. It's hard to describe why, I mean guess most people, other people figured it out, too, right? I don't know if they can describe why, or I probably could, but I don't want to use up your tape.
RINGGENBERG: Oh, that's okay. Let me ask you this, if you were talking to somebody who was an aspiring colorist, some new guy or gal just out of art school, what would you tell them to do to prepare for a career as a colorist?
GIDDINGS: Well, you know what it is, to just go to the different, you have to go to the companies. I mean starting at the beginning, or somebody there coming out of art school, they already have taste? I mean they already know how to color a little bit?
RINGGENBERG: Yes.
GIDDINGS: I hear the baby.
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, she's standing here handing me her rubber Big Bird.
GIDDINGS: That's great. I would suggest, you know, instead of looking at all of the coded...It's really important to look at things and maybe, you know, looking at some of the interesting stuff, the more popular stuff right now that's out isn't maybe the best way to learn, because a lot of them are sort of tricks and sort of color themes that are in, or being widely used, like now, but maybe not in a year from now, or maybe not even a year ago. It's really good to pay attention to basic principles of the drawing and the storytelling. It really is about foreground, middle ground, background, and allegience to the story. You know you go to the company, you get a little script, you get a few of those pages, and you practice. Oh, you know, a lot of those preview books, they usually have three or four pages of black and white artwork printed, you know like that, and you kind of maybe make up your own little story for it or you can tell what's going on, and you give it a theme, I mean it's...And it is practice, and I think getting books like the older ones, but where, you know, say someone like Steve Oliff when he was painting, I think that stuff, that's unbeatable. I look at that stuff all the time. I think even the World's Finest, that's on a computer, that's a little bit later, but I think that stuff is great to look at. It's got, you know it can render metal in that. If you're doing superheroes, it's got all the tricks for metal and flying and drama and that, and then it's got real-life stuff, too, with the, with some color, you know? It's easy to make the characters really bright and bold, and then make all of your backgrounds sort of grey or dull. But I don't think that may always being doing allegience to the story. I think the colorist, you are an illustrator, and I think you just have to, it's not about making pretty pictures, it's about telling the story, you know?
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I love your suggestion about taking the little preview black and white pages and using those for practice. That's a very pragmatic idea.
GIDDINGS: That's what I used to do. I used to just take them. I used to collect them and I mean this is after I was already sort of in, but I was getting jobs and I felt like I hadn't really learned enough and I needed more practice and I would xerox because that was the only black and white artwork I could find, you know, xeroxing that and painting them. And it's funny because now as the color editor here I get a lot of these kids coming in to show me work and they're all, they all have--I can't believe how many samples of Sin City I've seen colored, which is great except that it's not the most, it's demanding in an artistic way but it's not the most demanding storytelling artwork for color. But, I mean, some of the kids have caught on, you know. They're on the right track. This is a trick that some people know about?
RINGGENBERG: As far as looking at other colorists, you mentioned Steve Oliff. Was Steve an influence on your approach?
GIDDINGS: Yeah. I mean I think the first thing I was looking at when I did, well, that's all I looked at actually, when I the Prince stuff I was looking at the World's Finest, that was with Steve Rude. It's funny, that was with Steve Rude, and it was colored by Steve Oliff, so it was actually priming me for the Nexus stuff, but I would bet that there's a lot of versatility of the palate and the storytelling there and the actual artwork, you know, relly allowed the color to go from all kinds of extremes, or through all kinds of extremes. I thought that was great, but and after that, you know, it was people that I knew, like Dinah???? and J.J. Burch, who I was in the studio with, who were, `Well, if you like that, look at this. You know, if you like that, look at this. I sort of had some help with people directing me, you know, like, even if things that I thought were nice, it's like, oh, oh, yeah, but you know what he was looking, he was looking at this you know. So, you know, looking, but Steve Oliff's stuff before he was doing the computer stuff, even. He's been painting and coloring a long time. A fabulous artist. I don't think a lot of the kids even know that he was doing stuff before he was Olyoptics, you know, that he did fully painted books. You know that?
RINGGENBERG: I remember seeing Steve's stuff at conventions back in the seventies. I mean I don't know Steve well, but I've known him a long time.
GIDDINGS: Yeah, well we met him and I got to tell him, it's funny, I guess I wasn't a big fan but I met him in San Diego just this year. It was nice that he actually, he knew who I was, which was kind of exciting because you always think that when you're sitting at your desk and you're doing your work day after day, it's hard to imagine that other people actually see it. You only ever, I only ever feel like I'm working for myself, you know, and it's a funny thing to go out there and then, I guess I like, I don't know, wow! I like this, or I saw this, or I know who you are and that's kind of exciting and it reminds you to stay on your toes because people really are looking, but he knew who I was and we met and I was telling him that he was the first person that I looked at and that was a funny thing to say, because you know, I really did and there he was, I mean he's still doing it. And he was about, sort of the only one and now I look at, God, I look at illustrators and artists and I look at all kinds of things. I look at Edward Hopper for color and Vuillard, and I mean I now I've gone back to looking at painters for themes and stuff and, because, you know, again, even just a coloring, it's just sort of, part of, you know, the art thing. So I like to look at the masters.
RINGGENBERG: You know it's funny you should mention Hopper, I've always thought that some of Hopper's paintings look like big comic panels.
GIDDINGS: Oh, don't you think so?
RINGGENBERG: Oh yeah, like some of his city scenes? Absolutely.
GIDDINGS: Yeah, and it's the whole thing with what I was saying about the storytelling. I mean he conveys--You don't even need dialogue for for one of those paintings, you know. You don't need to know it's there, it's the color sets you up perfectly for a mood, you know. Every one of them puts you in a space and a time and that's all because of the color. And so that's what you try to do in comics, I mean it's not that big a leap, you know, it really isn't.
RINGGENBERG: All right, Noelle, thank you. I think that's excellent stuff.
GIDDINGS: I hope so, that's the thing, I tend to--I get nervous, you know, I think I talk too much.
RINGGENBERG: Listen, it's all going to be edited, I'm just going to pull quotes. It's not going to be raw transcript, so...
GIDDINGS: No, no I didn't think so. Doing five pages on me.
RINGGENBERG: I'm going to talk to you and Steve Oliff and a couple of other people in the business and I was wondering, do you have any recommendations of people I should look up, as far as colorists?
GIDDINGS: Well you can look up Lovern, he's been doing it forever, too. He was--
RINGGENBERG: Oh, Kindzerski?
GIDDINGS: Yeah.
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, I'm going to get his number from Steve.
GIDDINGS: He's a really nice guy, too. And I think he was the only, the first competition for Steve and the world of computer coloring, you know, only the second one to set up. And he's great. We spend quite a bit of time together in San Diego as well. Funny how colorists end up hanging with colorists, you know. But I knew his stuff pretty well, too, and he, it's funny. He'll tell you about the masters, too. I spent some time in San Diego asking him to help increase my library of who to look at, you know, and he was, oh God, I was just going to. I can't remember who his favorite is. It would have been interesting if I could...
RINGGENBERG: Well, I can ask him.
GIDDINGS: Yeah, right, no, but it was funny if you could, if I'd remembered you could tell him Noelle said that this is your favorite, and he'd laugh. I can't remember.
RINGGENBERG: Have you ever gone back and looked at Marie Severin's coloring of the E.C. Comics?
GIDDINGS: No.
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, she's one of the greats.
GIDDINGS: Oh, really?
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, but you'd have to go back and either look at some of the stuff she recolored for Russ Cochran, or the original comics.
GIDDINGS: Okay, tell me her name again.
RINGGENBERG: Marie Severin. She's been up at Marvel for years and years, but she colored every E.C. comic for like, jeeze, like four or five years.
GIDDINGS: No, that's the problem with never having been a comic fan and only being in the business, only like a few years, and sort of being alone and that, I didn't, I just don't know this stuff, you know? I mean I worked on it, but I always like a recommendation because I always have books open in front of me. That's another thing, whether you're drawing, coloring, you know, inking, painting, the whole picture. A couple of art teachers a long time ago, and then other artists have told me, and it's a good idea to always keep books open on your desk. And I still do. I always have things open on my desk. It just reminds me to think, and I have other people's coloring up that maybe don't do exactly what I do or maybe their taste isn't anything like my taste, but if it's good, and it's different, it can remind me to try different things, you know, to make my imagination, it's easy to color comics, and sort of once you know how, there is a vocabulary of comic book coloring and once you know how to do it, kind of, you can just keep doing the same old tricks, and it becomes easy, you know? And I always, I try, I keep trying to do other things, to tax my imagination a little, you know, to be creative.
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, yeah. Well, Marie was good. Will Eisner did some wonderful stuff on The Spirit.
GIDDINGS: Coloring?
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, that stuff was originally done in color.
GIDDINGS: I didn't know that.
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, it was like a newspaper section. The Spirit section was like a little comic book, a little coverless comic book that went out in certain papers.
GIDDINGS: Wow.
RINGGENBERG: And if you want to see some samples of it, there's a book called The Harvey Kurtzman History of Comic Art: From Aargh to Zap! And they reprint some original Spirit sections. And there's also some real nice coloring in there by Frank Frazetta on comics.
GIDDINGS: Uh-huh. I didn't even know he used to color comics.
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, well interestingly enough, Frazetta used to color some of Mort Drucker's advertising work and covers because Mort Drucker's colorblind.
GIDDINGS: Is that right?
RINGGENBERG: Yeah.
GIDDINGS: That's funny because I just was in the...I'm always looking at children's books, also for, there's always some really great coloring, in good ones, you know? In children's book illustration and I'm always looking at those. And I was just in one the other day and he has a new, there's a children's book out, with a western, it's a western children's book by Mort Drucker and I cannot remember the other fellow's name. It must be that I didn't recognize it. But it's a children's book that is almost, I said: `This should be in comic book stores.' I mean it's the exact same style. But it's colored by someone else, too, and I thought, well if you put all this time into drawing this really great children's book with this big, wide open spaces, why wouldn't he just color it himself? But I mean, I guess that's why. (Laughs)
RINGGENBERG: Yeah. Mike Kaluta has selective red/green color blindness.
GIDDINGS: He never told me that. See, Mike, and I'm good friends with Mike.
RINGGENBERG: Oh, yeah, I've known him for years, too.
GIDDINGS: It's funny, I mean because that's just because how I, it just happened, you know, how you get to know people, but that's all because of the fact that I was interested in art and illustration, so some of the fellows who've been in comics and drawing for a long time and worked...in mainstream superhero comics I did know who they were, you know, because I was, say like The Studio book, you with Berni and Mike and stuff, those books I had, you know, so I was interested in meeting them when I was in the business for a while and he was in my neighborhood, so...
RINGGENBERG: I once interviewed Mike and I asked him, you know, how do you deal with the color blindness like when you're doing an oil painting or something. He said he keeps all the pigments together and he can kind of tell the difference by the difference in the tone or the shading.
GIDDINGS: That's wild, huh?
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, it's more complicated, but his stuff is, his colored stuff is beautiful, I think.
GIDDINGS: Well, I've written down everything you've told me so I'll have to...
RINGGENBERG: Well, listen, let me close with one kind of funny story. Going back to Marie Severin, when she was coloring the E.C. Comics, I don't know if you've ever seen any of the horror comics they did, but they're pretty grisly: I mean, you know, cannibalism and people getting their heads cut off and stuff and I've read that when Marie was coloring those comics, if she ran across something she thought was in really bad taste, she'd color the whole panel bright blue.
GIDDINGS: Oh my God. That's funny.
RINGGENBERG: That was her way of telling the editors, I don't like this.
GIDDINGS: Really. Bad idea. Well, that's always the joke, you know, the color knocking everything out if you don't like it. You know what I wanted to say also which is a really good, and it's going back to, I just thought of it, see that's part of getting nervous, right? That with influences for, you know for people getting into the business, or kids, what I look at all the time, when I talked about having books in front of you, you know those, European, I think they're just French. They're French comic book magazines.
RINGGENBERG: Oh, yeah, like Metal Hurlant?
GIDDINGS: Well, this is a, yeah, A Souvret???
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, that one I haven't seen, but I know the genre you're referring to.
GIDDINGS: Yeah, right, and they have like, they'll have, like seven or eight different artists, and they're all, with their seperate bits and stuff. Well, so many of them...I've got a whole handful of them and you can get them at conventions and stuff. I actually was in Italy this year, so I got them. Yeah, and even Comic Art is a European one isn't it?
RINGGENBERG: Yeah, I think so.
GIDDINGS: There are, usually, you know, two out of the five stories in there are colored, you know, are usually wonderful coloring reference for anyone. I mean at least that many, they have, I would say Europeans in general, I mean their approach to comics, I don't want to make a generalization because I haven't looked at that many, but at least these, there's some beautiful stuff happening in a lot of these stories, coloring-wise that's sort of halfway between comic book tricks and beautiful, interpreted realism, you know, comic book-ish interpreted realism and I look at those. They're, a lot of them are beautiful, and clear, and thorough, and I think they're, they're great reference for anyone, if you can get your hands on a couple of them. And then you can abstract or cut things out of them as you need to, for regular comics. I mean you can take short cuts and stuff, but as far as an education in how to tell a story in a lot of these, they're just beautiful. I'm looking at Warnofs and Raves??? I don't even know their, I've never even heard of them. But anyway those are great to pick up if you can get...Jimmy Palmiotti is a real good friend of mine. You know him?
RINGGENBERG: No.
GIDDINGS: He's an inker. He always. That's funny. He's real popular, so I've heard.
RINGGENBERG: There's so much stuff out there it's hard for me to keep up.
GIDDINGS: Well, he usually works with Joe Quesada. They usually are...
RINGGENBERG: Joe's name I know.
GIDDINGS: And you don't know Jimmy Palmiotti?
RINGGENBERG: No, I have to confess.
GIDDINGS: Well, that's okay, he's just a friend of mine. I didn't really know his, I mean I didn't pick up his stuff for, I just knew him. He's always bringing these books. He comes to Milestone a lot because he's doing work for us and he's always picking up. They all do, you know, they're always picking up books for themselves to look at all the time and he's always got one of these under his arm and that's how it started. I said, let me see that, or let me see that, and started using them for reference but he was looking at them for inking. And even Denys has got them. He looks at them. Everybody looks at them, who I know, they're really great to look at.
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